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PSD=PostSaturnDepression
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Just wondering, I never asked this question before so any input would be appreciated.

How difficult is it to swap a GT's automatic trans for a manual and has anyone heard of someone doing this kind of thing to a G5 GT??
 

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its never been done as fa as i know and its def not easy. the hanh turbo systems are different for autos and manuals due to different shaped transmissions. this leads me to believe the body pans are different to accomodate for the tranmission differences
 

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They're no problem to swap, but getting them to work is the real problem. You're going to have to have a computer thats programmed for the stick, make room for a clutch and shifter and some other things as well. Its cheaper to just buy a car with the tranny you want already installed. As far as I've read in the different forums, the auto tranny is a good bit stronger than the manual, so the turbo came out for the auto first. This discussion has already been posted pretty recently. Just search through the forums.
 

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Yeah the auto is about twice as strong as the manual, and there are built autos being tested now to handle 500hp plus, from a guy in winnipeg i believe, 50000km on it with no signs of trouble yet. I would keep the auto and have the tranny tuned for better shifting.
 

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PSD=PostSaturnDepression
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Yeah, that swap idea is not a good idea, lol.

I like that shift plus thing, but dunno how it works.
 

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I'll try to find the site for ya when I get the chance. From what I've read, the shift plus kit gives the computer a higher pressure message, so the tranny will shift quicker. I think it also has different stages for more aggressive shift patterns. I've even heard of some autos scratching their tires when shifting. Only problem I heard so far is the traction control kicking in when the tires start to spin, but I'm sure theres a way of disabling that feature.
 

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As far as changing the transmission, it shouldn't be too difficult. You would really only need the parts from the Manual trans version: Ie the Clutch, linkages, shifter, console, computers...etc. You will probably also need the engine mounts and transmission mounts from the manual since they're probably different.

Its possible to do the conversion, I know a number of cars have had transmissions swiched to the MT form the AT. The G5 should be pretty decent as its roomier in the engine bay than many other FWD vehicles.
 

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th0ughtless said:
They're no problem to swap, but getting them to work is the real problem. You're going to have to have a computer thats programmed for the stick, make room for a clutch and shifter and some other things as well. Its cheaper to just buy a car with the tranny you want already installed. As far as I've read in the different forums, the auto tranny is a good bit stronger than the manual, so the turbo came out for the auto first. This discussion has already been posted pretty recently. Just search through the forums.
What are you basing this claim of transmission strength on?

I doubt there would be any need to program the ECU as it’s the Engine Control Unit. The transmission relies on the TCU or Transmission Control Unit. Older style GM computers know as PCM's (Powertrain Control Module) controlled both Transmission and engine, GM did away with this style when they introduced CAN BUS.

The swap would be pretty easy depending on the facility you have available. I think the hardest part would be gathering all the parts needed. It would be a direct swap.
 

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PSD=PostSaturnDepression
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
True, but the only thing I will be doing anytime soon, would be that Shift Plus kit, and figuing out how to get rid of that damned rev limited!!! :evil: man I hate that limiter! Oh, and finding out how to put in a button to turn off the traction control.
 

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talking about the rev limiter in nuetral?

its there for a reason, to stop you from breaking your transission by overrevving it....

while its nice to hear every once in a while, revving that high without a load on the tranny is bad for it. please tell me you arent neutral dropping your car and that you just like to hear it rev haha
 

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McGuyver said:
Just wondering, I never asked this question before so any input would be appreciated.

How difficult is it to swap a GT's automatic trans for a manual and has anyone heard of someone doing this kind of thing to a G5 GT??


should of bought a manual IMO
 

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blackriderg6 said:
th0ughtless said:
They're no problem to swap, but getting them to work is the real problem. You're going to have to have a computer thats programmed for the stick, make room for a clutch and shifter and some other things as well. Its cheaper to just buy a car with the tranny you want already installed. As far as I've read in the different forums, the auto tranny is a good bit stronger than the manual, so the turbo came out for the auto first. This discussion has already been posted pretty recently. Just search through the forums.
What are you basing this claim of transmission strength on?

I doubt there would be any need to program the ECU as it’s the Engine Control Unit. The transmission relies on the TCU or Transmission Control Unit. Older style GM computers know as PCM's (Powertrain Control Module) controlled both Transmission and engine, GM did away with this style when they introduced CAN BUS.

The swap would be pretty easy depending on the facility you have available. I think the hardest part would be gathering all the parts needed. It would be a direct swap.
Ear ye go kid
Click Here


ajemery said:
should of bought a manual IMO
Yessir. You haven't had the car that long man. You should've thought about that then. If its me paying for a vehicle for that long, its going to be how I want it.
 

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th0ughtless said:
blackriderg6 said:
th0ughtless said:
They're no problem to swap, but getting them to work is the real problem. You're going to have to have a computer thats programmed for the stick, make room for a clutch and shifter and some other things as well. Its cheaper to just buy a car with the tranny you want already installed. As far as I've read in the different forums, the auto tranny is a good bit stronger than the manual, so the turbo came out for the auto first. This discussion has already been posted pretty recently. Just search through the forums.
What are you basing this claim of transmission strength on?

I doubt there would be any need to program the ECU as it’s the Engine Control Unit. The transmission relies on the TCU or Transmission Control Unit. Older style GM computers know as PCM's (Powertrain Control Module) controlled both Transmission and engine, GM did away with this style when they introduced CAN BUS.

The swap would be pretty easy depending on the facility you have available. I think the hardest part would be gathering all the parts needed. It would be a direct swap.
Ear ye go kid
Click Here


ajemery said:
should of bought a manual IMO
Yessir. You haven't had the car that long man. You should've thought about that then. If its me paying for a vehicle for that long, its going to be how I want it.

Just so I get this straight, you basing transmissions strength on the max engine torque that GM lists for that particular transmission?

Ohhhh where do I start.

Ok, first off the Max Gearbox Torque is NOT the measurement used to rate a transmissions strength, its Max Engine The 4T45 is an absolutely terrible transmission, boosted Grand Am's pop them all the time and the one in my 14 Second N/A Grand Am GT lasted about 30,000KM with me putting that kind of power through it.

Second, if you do a bit of research the Max Gearbox Torque number on 95% of the transmissions is in fact very close if not exactly the same as the most powerful engine GM has mated to it.


Example

4T45E - Max Gearbox Torque of 221 LB-FT, and oddly enough the 3500VVT LZ4 put out 220 LB-FT in 2006.

Why you ask? One word, Liability! GM rates there transmission much lower because when it comes to warranty time and someone has blown their transmission who has performance mods, all they have to do is reference GM's specs on that transmission.

The Gearbox rating on the manual transmission is usually lower due to the limitations of the clutch. Take a look at the F40 it has a Max Engine Torque of 245 LB-FP but only 295 LB-FT Gearbox compared to the 4T45E's Engine Torque rating of 221 and 325 Gearbox.


The F23 might not be the strongest transmission around however it will take a hell of a lot more abuse than the 4T45. You can't just rate a transmission on maximum amount of input power you have to think about how long it will take that power for that’s where manuals (as in the transmission themselves) shine over autos ESPECALY the 4T45E. Take it from someone who has been there.


I think I've made my point.

P.S. I'm far from a kid.
 

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Theres no max HP rating just peak torque. That seems high for a FWD automatic tranny. Before going on one sorce you might want to double check it with another.

It says its used in the G6, I know the G6 3.5L tranny is only rated at 215 HP. Infact last year the new 3.5L put out 224 HP and it was outside of its designed limit. GM accally reduced the 3.5L engine out put this year to 219 so it meets with the HP rating of the tranny better
 

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Heres a link over to G6performance on the same auto 4T45...

http://g6performance.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1487

Gear box torque max is 325, max ENGINE out put is only 205 of torque. So 205 Torque and 215 HP at the fly wheel is the tranny specs.

Not arguing or anything but the GTP tranny 4T65 is rated more at 280/280 and of corce the 10% would put you at about 310/310. I dont see the 4T45 lasting long with out snaping even at 280 BHP.

I would like to read an artical about that tranny handling 500+ HP without any type of mod with out snaping at 50% throttle. If you can, post the link
 

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PSD=PostSaturnDepression
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Hmm, yeah so instead of arguing about which trans is tougher, I would like to thank those who provided input for my questions.

Also, I owned only manuals all my driving career, I know what to do and not to do. As for auto trans, what could you do to possibly break them in a stock GT, short of poping into gear from neutral while reving.

The rev limiter is BS, it wont save your trans if your in neutral and reving, even at 4k, the engine is only engaged, thats why they have neutral, to disengage the transmission is it not? I would think that having the trans engaged at high rpm would be worse than in neutral, but thats just me. :roll:
 

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Remember: There are pumps, a torque converter, and clutch packs that are engaged even when an automatic is in "neutral". And there's transmission fluid constantly being pumped around. Anyway, reving an engine in neutral, at that high of an RPM, doesn't serve any purpose unless you want to throw a rod through the side of the block and test that warranty out. :twisted:
 

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The engine is designed to cut the fuel just before it would hit the redline. Unless your engine is built up to handle post 6500 RPM speeds, it'll probably blow. Keep it.

You can, however remove the speed limiter with a retune of the PCM. The stock limiter for the speed, on the base model at least, is mainly due to tire durability rather than engine capability. The tires are only rated for about 112MPH.
 

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Whats going to happen at higher RPMs, you need better springs to handle the stress of that rev. To high of an RPM that goes and causes the springs to start to bind andventally unable to handle the stress and the stress is transfured to the valve which bends destroying the head.

So over rev is not good at all. Thats why the engines have fuel cut off. Even on a PCM tune they dont remove the rev limiter, they ussally bump it up about 300 RPMs. Plus if your engine isnt designed for the higher RPMs, once you cross a line of peak power the engine starts to reduce HP output to to friction. Thus why you need to shift to the next gear :p
 
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